Gloria Brame wrote in her blog: 

Morally, I don't give a hoot how a man spends his leisure time or his money; but someone's level of experience with a prodomme tells me volumes about him. The more he goes to prodommes, the more likely he will be filled with self-centered expectations. If he's a habitue of pro dungeons, it's almost certain he's got problems in other areas of his sexual/romantic life. Some sober alcoholics and recovered drug abusers and gamblers get addicted to prodommes, and for some of the same reasons they turned to booze and drugs and gambling in the first place. Others have intimacy problems, or control issues, or are so guilty or conflicted about their needs they can't share them with their life partners.

So she starts off with no moral or 'anti' belief system, but has personal experiences as a woman in real life who wants/enjoys a male sub.  She ends with this summation (but you really should read the whole thing ~ esp if you plan on commenting!)

 From my perspective, the culture of professional dominance has actually worked against non-pros. Prodomme culture perpetuates male fantasies, not female ones. Prodomme culture is all about women being what men want them to be. It's all about creating an illusion men will pay for. Men come away thinking that they were "good slaves" by engaging in the very fantasies they themselves script. In the end, prodomme culture enables and encourages submissive men to remain emotionally self-centered and sexually immature. In other words, prodomme culture has kind of FUCKED IT UP for the rest of us femdoms.

As a former sex pro, I've often thought of the impact sex work has on real relationships.  Tho I was not a domme, I feel this discussion is worthy of some SK time

Gloria posses some good questions:  Do sex services emotionally stunt clients?  Does using services minimize potential relationships?  Does it rob real people from the opportunity to have relationships with folks who are busy being clients?

 Besides, you want my thoughts, don't you?  And I expect Angela, Libby and Jewel at the very least have thoughts and experiences of their own to add...

Yes, sex workers affect the sex lives of 'real' or non-professionals.  Sometimes, it is in a positive manner.  Sometimes not. 

In a negative way, we do 'take' from the pool of persons who might otherwise engage or commit to real relationships ~ not nec marry or commit to one person, but they are removed, at least for those actions, from real relationships.  In this sense, they are limiting their own growth.  And they do then limit the opportunities of others.  If a person has intimacy issues, practice is a good thing & ought not to be skipped but encouraged. 

However...

A person who is not willing to participate in relationships ~ or is unwilling to participate correctly in them ~ only continues to hurt others.  Unwillingness prohibits the growth & creates negative exp for others (possibly they all fall like dominoes to such bad, hurt,damaged states).  So in this case, I feel the pro helps not just the 'John' but spares others.

For me, it all comes to balance. 

A deep investment in avoiding your life, yourself, is a bad thing.  Supplementing your life, with fantasy or additional persons/activities is fine as long as it isn't a permanent substitute for living.  See a pro once a week.  Call once a day.  Spend a week a month away with a all-inclusive service vacation. I can't say when it is 'too much' for folks in general.   If this doesn't replace your real life; if you still have healthy connections with others, this isn't nec stunting or damaging.  

 Does is limit?  Honestly, in some ways 'yes' for any time you are off in fantasy land you are missing real life.  But it also adds to the lives ~ the relationships ~ of many.  Learning how to deal with fantasies, when to take them out & about in your daily world, learning how to care about others and yourself, these are positive things which the services of pros offer.

For me, the bottom line? 

Does it create false or fantasy expectations for real life relationships, dooming them to failure?  Only if these people are the types to avoid reality anyway. 

And then aren't you glad the pro is there to 'take' them from your dating & mating pool?

Thanks to Angela, I was alerted to Gloria's second follow-up post on this theme.

In it she wrote "...and yes, she has every right to be ticked off when a man she's dating blithely compares her to sex-workers."  To which I posted the question of her beliefs that pro dommes are not sex workers ~ I'm awaiting reply on that.  But we can continue with the main focus of her thoughts: Do pro dommes do a disservice to real life dommes?

Again, I am neither pro domme nor dominatrix in my personal life (Gracie prefers to be a sub), but the line of thought about pros v real life, fantasy v reality is an interesting discussion. 

I agree that the very basis of a domme being paid for her services makes her, in part, cater to the submissive.  If baby ain't happy, she makes no money.  In this sense, to domme is topped from the bottom ~ in many cases.  There are many, too many in my opinion, folks which work bdsm this way.  Of course, 'real' folks aren't exempt from this.  I know many people in real life loving relationships who acquiese to the demands of a lover who is on the bottom (like any other lover, it's about aim to please at times ~ and being 'into bdsm' does not mean you automatically have your head wrapped right about your relationship).  But does this mean that a pro domme automatically offers a cheaters version of the experience?

If she is market driven, where money dictates her actions at work, does she lose her power?  Do the bottoms/clients have all the real power?

If the pro domme is basically catering to a male fantasy and paid to provide it, does this diminish her equality, power ~ removing, as Gloria believes, the feminism from which femdommes  are born?

If they are providing fantasy, defined as market driven or a dream experience by one with esperience, how does this compare to any real world experience?  Should the two even be compared?

My experience as an escort tells me that the differences are many.  There is a great difference between pro and amateur.  If the pro domme is basically catering to a male fantasy and paid to provide it, then this is not about her power, her expression.  As an escort, I was personally present, communicating and providing servies beyond 'sex' ~ but also well aware that the 'me' there was not the same 'me' as on any other date. I always said, my ex boyfriends would have loved to pay for my services ~ never once was the chit-chat about my day (in any real way), never once did I complain about the movie or dinner choice, never once did I consider a partner in bed selfish enough to make a statement about it to him.  This time wasn't about 'me' or even 'us' it was all about 'them', the client.

This is not to say I didn't enjoy my work or take pride in it.  But I wasn't completely 'me'. This is true of the pro domme. Caring may be present.  The details, script etc may be there.  But in the end, it is rather one-sided.  It has to be.  It is creating services for one.  A fantasy.

The danger for this is clients and others who compare the fantasy with reality and find the later wanting.  These people do not see (or value) what real intimacy brings.  To say there are no differences is to lie.  

Gloria ended her post with this:

I could ramble on endlessly about this complex subject but for now, I'm just curious what folks out there think. Do you disagree with me? Are my generalizations too sweeping for your tastes? Do you think I'm dissin' pros by pointing out how and why I don't think they should be viewed as role-models for non-pros?

I agree with her on many points.  And sweeping generalizations are all we can use to discuss this as an issue, really; so that is understood.  As for the last question, I don't think pro dommes should be the role-models for non-pro lives ~ but the comparisions should be made so that others can see what the two really are. 

Now, I'd really like to hear what others have to say...  

Ok, here goes...

As a pro, I absolutely believe that men who constantly pay behave differently than those who don't or only use prefessional services casually. This goes not only for professional dommes, but escorts as well. Actually, one of the reasons I kinda stopped doing domination a few years back was because I was tired of acting out the scripted fantasies of men. I didn't feel 'dominant' at all, but a slave to their fantasies. it got really boring after awhile. Do I think that pro-domme serives hut non-pros? Not necessarily. Considering most S/M play is consensual, the sub really does rule the scene as the dom can't do something to him/her without the sub;s approval. Also, the dom seems to be the one 'doing' more often and the sub is 'receiving'. Who's doing the work here. You can make a slave clean your house, but the slave will often expect something in return, and subs often get to come, while doms often do not.

In regards to escorting..I have many good regular clients that seem to substitute the services of pros as an alternative to actually finding a girlfriend. These a nice, good looking, decent men who enjoy the variety of seeing a different girl every week, or, in a few cases, men who became so emotionally attached to me that they actually thought I was their girlfriend. Who am I to complain that these men's 'issues' continually lined my pockets with cash, but I did start to wonder how they could go so long without meeting someone non-pro (we're talking years here). Sometimes it's control issues, but most of the time I think it relates more to social insecurities, or at least a lack of motivation to put themselves out there. It's just easier to shell out the cash and know what you're going to get than go through the whole rigamarole of dating and never knowing what the outcome will be.

That said, I can always tell when a client habitually uses the servies of pros because he is either 1) unusually demanding, 2) has really ridiculous and convoluted fantasies, 3) is cold and impersonal, 4) extremely picky about the girl he sees, 5) has a vast knowledge of all the escort services (or dungeons) in the area, including the names of the people they're run by. So yes, I guess we could psycologically dissect these men for pages and pages, but, hey, we all have issues. 

G, I agree with you that my boyfriends would have loved to pay for my services-I am definitely a much different person conversationally that I am in regular life. That's part of what I'm getting paid for! The problem really is that men got emotionally attached to me because of my kindness, but they didn't realize that that's not really how I am in regualr life. If they knew I was a cold-hearted bitch, they'd really be let down!

Actually, the worst incident I saw of someone who was a habitual user of pro servies was the porn producer I worked for last year. A nice guy, but his constant re-telling of his exploits with escorts and such was a turn-off for everyone, including myself. He got the crazy idea to do a porn shoot with himself as one of the performers, even though he is not very attractive or well-endowed. We knew this was an expensive waste of money, but myself and the other crew member sat and watched as he did a three-way with two female performers and directed them to do crazy sex positions such as spinning one girl around on his cock like a windmill (didn't really work), telling them to 'brush their teeth' with his cock, and making a noise something like 'vrrrrrrr' (the best i can describe it) while going down on them. I told my friend Dave he reminded me exactly like someone who habitually pays for sex, which he did. If you ever want to die laughing in horror, I have behind-the-scenes footage of this whole mess.

I did write about fantasy vs. reality is one of my earlier boudoir pieces. I do agree that sometimes the services of pros can be dangerous for men who  don't understand the difference between the two, but I think there needs to be a better understanding that pro-services are just that...services... and not substitutes for real relationships.

My male ramblings on this for what it’s worth.

This article answered a few questions that have been buzzing around in my head for years.

 I really wanted to know what’s in this for the woman. So, someone like Gloria does it because she enjoys it, well I’m glad to know that kind of kink does really exist in some womens minds and it aint all about ‘the money, Honey’.

My next question would be to what degree does this domination desire stretch, I didn’t find an answer.

It seems to me that when it comes to paying for sexual fantasy or being just plain perverts men hold all the trophies.

Or so I have always been led to believe, ie men wanting to dominate women. Men wanting women to dominate them. Men paying prostitutes to do all kinds of things to realise their perverse desires. Men that like to watch lesbians do their stuff together, voyeur, flasher, anal sex with women, transsexual, transvestite, being dressed as babies, Men that are obsessed with womens feet, their shoes, their underwear, if not wanting to wear them then sniffing or wearing them. I could go on and on the list is endless but I wont bore you with my sober rantings. I wonder why this is, or perhaps being a male I am just merely mistaken again.

 Ok name me 3 sexual deviations that affect a majority of women. Don’t try lesbianism because as homosexuality it’s not a deviation I am assured, although I’ve met some devious queers in my time.

Maybe non-pro femdom is the new gay, a new skeleton falling from the closet.

For a brief moment there when she started to describe the sort of guys that frequent prodomes I thought she was describing Jake and I but that soon became apparently not.I'm the only alcoholic;)

I’ve never visited a prodrome and doubt I ever will, but I have my fantasies of being dominated by a female you only have to read some my work to know that.

But to say that all prodromes are the same, I would doubt because everyman’s idea of being dominated is subtly different, mine for instance doesn’t involve pain but it does involve bondage, restriction, frustration and the pure intense mental agony of not being allowed to climax until allowed. But very definitely involves fully completed controlled sex acts.

Her point about paying, keeps them in control I find debatable. I am sure some guys pay for it to go beyond their control surly that is the buzz, the turn on, the unknown.

If a man hates women why would pay them to beat him, surly he would pay to beat and abuse her? But then I aint Freud or Diamond Lil.

 I thought in the beginning it was established that the whole affair was built around male fantasy but then we go on to talk about marriage and taking a dominatrix home to meet the family ‘come on,’ lets get real if that is what we are trying to do at this point.

By now I was beginning to wonder where all this was really leading. Maybe to a support group for misunderstood dominatrix eh! Gracie?  www.help!my submissive dosen’t understand me.com  

I married ‘a nice girl’ and she can be very non-pro-dome occasionally much to my delight.

Why would you take emotional risks with a pro, she wouldn’t be interested just give me ‘The money honey”

I am left to wonder does she pay her non-paying submissive’s to be submissive in the ways she’d like them to react?

All in all quite a good article but to my mind it went around in non-productive circles towards the end and was just self-justifying. But I’d surely like a night with this Shelia I’m sure we could have a lot of ‘gratis’ fun.

At the end of the day, it gets fucking dark or to put it another way different stokes for different folks. But well we already knew all that didn’t we?

Gracie thanks as always for what you share as an insight to a fascinating past life.

Libby thanks for what you share from you current life. Your boss obviously didn’t share any sense of the erotic shared by all at T-E and S-K. I suggest in future you look to those sites for inspiration, incidentally Cough, cough, can I take you out to dinner some time, I have a project to discuss with you, PURR the motion picture at the moment showing at S-K scull cinemas in black and white!;) Watch it go by you aint been left out I can assure you.

Kind regard to you both

Tony

Gracie, I know that the article which started your inquiry was focused on a particular type of professional relationship and that Gloria was exploring the impact of dominant women, professionally and "for real." But you asked broader questions, about the impact sex work can have on real relationships and real emotional growth and I'd like to respond to that issue. You imply that the only positive benefits of a professional's work may be sparing others the experience of dealing with an immature and self-centered male. I think you are underestimating  the good which can flow from an open,  if  ultimately cash-based, professional connection.

    A lovely novel I finished recently says that miracles only seem to happen when there is someone to witness them and then to testify about them. Consider this testimony: A happy marriage of nearly 30 years. A post-menopausal wife who now finds sex "yucky" and wants no close contact or even casual intimacy which she fears might lead to sex. [Note to Gracie: could sex-kitten explore this issue? What happened to the liberated, aroused post-menopausal female Gail Sheehy suggested one could expect?] Several years of marriage counseling, in which communication is improved but, on this one issue, the wife refuses to budge, even with the urging of the counselor.

    A caring and committed husband and father who wants to keep the marriage together, but craves the intimacy no longer available to him. While he would never force himself on a woman, he finds himself longing for personal contact. His anger grows and grows. His own support network tells him to leave the marriage, noting that physical "abandonment" for as little as a year is grounds for divorce in his state.

    And then the husband, who is far too straight-laced, loyal and risk-averse to have an actual affair, finds a sex worker on line who gives him, for a fee to be sure, time, excitement and affection. He can never know for certain how sincere it all is or that the "she" there is the same "she" he might have met in some other context. But with the comfort he finds there, with her willingness to listen and console and stimulate, his anger lessens and his self-esteem rebounds. And the liberating conversations on-line do much to improve his ability to talk about his needs at home. It is not, as you suggested, that he did not see or value what "real" intimacy brings, but rather that he valued and lost that intimacy and was blessed to find a semblance of it elsewhere.

    Certainly the professional has improved the man's situation. She has probably saved the marriage, which continues strong on the wife's terms, so the wife's desires are being met. The children are spared. I'd say that a wonderful service had been performed.

    I have been led to understand that this scenario is not a rare one. You and others would know better than I. But it is one man's testimony. Make of it what you will. 

Booklover, I didn't say the only positive effect sex workers made was in sparing others.  If you re-read what I wrote, in the first posting, I also said: 

"But it also adds to the lives ~ the relationships ~ of many.  Learning how to deal with fantasies, when to take them out & about in your daily world, learning how to care about others and yourself, these are positive things which the services of pros offer."

I limited my thoughts on the benefits because I felt the issue here was dealing with fantasy & it's negative effects in the case of sex workers impacts on others rather than the benefits of sex workers as a whole.  Esp with regard to how workers behave and how that impacts how others are expected to be.  It's still an open topic as far as I can tell ~ I'm hoping a few others join us here yet...

I have and continue to be in support for sex workers, as well as vocalized it. But this does not make me blind to the negatives & I wanted to discuss them. 

Your specific comments I will address also, I promise.  (I agree with many, yet have some cautionary comments as well.)  But am in the middle of a few things which are distracting me from making clear points (bad enough that even I notice them lol)  Perhaps later tonight yet.

And the issue of the post-menopausal arousal, both male and female, is worthy of discussion too!  (Tho we'll need to move that to another thread, or we'll confuse folks more than they already are ) 

It's OK, Booklover ~ I wrote a lot, so I didn't think every word would get noticed (like when I talk lol) ~ and no, there won't be a quiz!

(Well, not yet anyway heh heh)

One thing that's always bothered me about sex work (that fits on this thread) is the duplicity. Leaving the moral societal code and legalities out of it (which is difficult for me to do!), there is in most situations, a lie being told. And when this lie is to a spouse or partner, someone with whom intimacy is desired, or implied by contract or verbal agreement, this lie is huge.

Now, I've had my share of clients who had legitimate reasons for seeking help. And jokes about 'wives who don't understand me' aside, there are real cases of partner problems which affect intimacy, both emotional and sexual. But is seeking an outside source the best solution? Traditional professional counseling may be accepted by a spouse/partner, but would a sex pro be? If so, great; problem solved. But if this service is seen as a betrayal, no matter what the benefits to one partner, the relationship is damaged. Perhaps not beyond repair, but damaged.

If services are sought when you are single, you are exempt from this conversation ~ unless, of course, you fall into the over-use category where you replace reality with fantasy as we've been discussing.

But if you are in a relationship and you do not come clean, if you harbor sex services as a dirty secret, can the benefits out-weigh the negative consequences? Even if never found out (a complete other thread, really), isn't the lie of ommission between you?

This is why I cautiously agree with your statements, Booklover. A wife who, for whatever reason, isn't intimate with her husband likely isn't helped by her husband's visits to the pro. Where's the line? I mean is talking dirty here at SK a betrayal? Is phone sex? Is heart-to-heart chat with a co-worker? Hell, again, I can't make an absoloute line here for 'all', but I think it's rather safe to say that emotionally removed wifey isn't going to dig hubby stickin' it to me, free or paid.

If both parties have an agreement which says something to the affect of "we aren't going to divorce, but we live sep lives" then hell, you prob have a green light or a free hall pass. But if not... A happier hubby with a duped wife isn't the cure for what ails the marriage, IMO.

In reality, which is what we started out talking about here, the occasional theraputic visit to a pro (escort, domme etc) or call to a PSO shouldn't be more traumatic than a trip to the dentist or chiropractor. More fun, hell yes! But no different as far as upset and acceptability goes. A dentist does things to you that your partner/lover never does (I hope!), and yet this is fine. It's healty. An OBGY does things to me that may be similar to my lover, but there's no betrayal. My doc's purpose is my health, there's no 'cheating' or betrayal or other 'taking' from the relationship with my lover. Why? Because emotions are not involved. I may 'love' my doc. I may want to kiss her for stopping what ails me, but there isn't anything going on here which threatens my relationship. Why can't sex workers be seen this way?

Why can't you (or I) call and get a dose of what we need? Blue balls, blue ovaries, may not life threatening, but go without a poop for 5 days and your doc will give you something... Sex is a bodily function, so let it function, damnit.

If people really understood and accepted that sex can occur without emotion or 'love' (not the best way nec, but a valid experience), then not only would sex workers be valued, but so would each & every person's sex life. If this were so, then when this requirement of the body could be met without impact on another. Hubby could have his sex, wifey could skip it, they both keep the marriage, and life would continue. (Or vice-versa) Yes?

As for the emotional issues that sex workers deal with, such as helping clients with not just physical intimacy but emotional intimacy as well, this is no different than a mental health professional. If we accept that some folks are hands-on learners, others learn by reading, others via lecture etc, why can't we accept that this is true for learning how to live our emotional lives as well?

If there weren't such a stigma regarding sex services (and I know I said I'd skip this, but hell, it must be said), this likely wouldn't be as large a problem. It could and should be seen as acceptable as seeing the counselour at the walk-in clinic. But it isn't. So even if you did it in Vegas, where it's legal, how can you have the conversation without a huge problem? One that risks the very things both hoped to avoid?

I don't have all the answers, but I have some pretty good ideas of where to start

But I think now someone else needs to talk lol

Booklover, I can't tell from your short post if I offended you? Maybe I just expect longer comments from you? lol But the 'no need to continue' makes me wonder if you're put-off?  I hope not!

As for a return to Gloria's comments, I'm not sure that she feels subs in general are so 'bad' ~ I would think not anyway as she's a pioneer in bdsm (and one of my most admired persons!) 

I do think her upset or diatribe as she calls it, is at a minimum 'interesting' and at a maximum 'illuminating'.  I'm not sure if she's aware of it or not, but while her focus began on drawing a line between the fantasy world of pros and the reality of a real relationship from the perspective of a femdomme, she did just as much to illustrate the truths regarding expectations real-world femdommes have of subs.  

While you'd think Dom to submissive would be like hand to glove, it isn't that simple.  You're dealing with people.  People who desire relationships.  There is a lot more to line-up than just parts in sex.  While the desire to dominate may appear to line up with another's desire to be dominated, it's not quite so simple.  How do you get there?  And Gloria's posts describe the difficulty regarding desires meeting expectations ~ and how difficult it is to even meet people base on expectations.

Gloria wrote of the difficulty in finding a partner based on unrealistic expectations that many subs have.  I believe Gloria's point here is that the pro dresses the part, has 'all the latest toys' etc.  Because it's her job.  Like a film star with her live-in chef, personal fitness trainer, wardrobe and makeup folks ~ the pro domme has high maintenance to deliver the fantasy.  To expect an average, every day, domme in a realtionship to dress and act the part during a day of reporting to the boss, changing diapers, walking the dog isn't fair.  If the sub has unrealistic expectations based on experiences with pro dommes, or the public images/perceptions/projections, the domme seems to come up short.  This would make for more difficulty in finding satistfying partners.

And should they hook-up, then what? 

If a femdomme wants to dominate, do things her way, but the sub wants things his way, how do you negotiate that?  If the domme does what he wants, is she really dominating?  If I read Gloria correctly, the answer is 'no'.  And just askThe Baroness, sheesh!  But in relationships, and in healthy sexual relationships, you do want to please your parner.  You know he likes a spanking, you want to give him one ~ and in D/s this is likely doubled, yes?  But if/when the sub insists on spankings, is the domme getting what she needs when she provides them? This is why the pros give spankings whether it 'works' for them or not ~ because they get paid to do so. 

Conversly, Gloria's posts show that dommes have expectations of subs as well.  She seems to have experienced her share of male subs who have a combination of high expectations and selfish or addictive natures who want the same 'pro experience' from a personal relationship.  It is selfish to want/expect a person to be available to do what you want when you want it, even if that want is to be humiliated or spanked.  This is what I think she is discussing.  But it is clear to me that Gloria's diatribe also exposes some of her own expectations, or at least her experiences.  It's easy to understand how a person would come to resent not just the less than satisfying sexual experiences (where she as domme is commanded to do things to a sub) and the difficulty to even getting that far due to subs with unrealistic expectations.  (She could likely benefit from a pro sub, where she could pay for the time to do what she wants, when she wants it )

I don't have much personal experience in many of the matters she discusses, but I find that if you remove the parts I don't know, it's a rather common issue:  Do public/professional persons acurately represent the persons/population they are percieved to?

Political comments aside (insert snarky comment here), that's what we're really talking about.  Are the public images and professional experiences a reflection of reality?  Can you, should you, expect something of someone in your everyday life to 'be' like the image on a billboard, TV screen or publicity photo?

My answer is 'No'.  So subs should not expect (and heavens-no not demand!) real D/s relationships to be 'like' their pro domme services.  But perhaps the same can be said for femdommes expecting that male subs are so likely to be weak, addictive, selfish, demanding men.

Gracie - I was a bit put off, but that was yesterday. What upset me was your principled, but I think too easy, expectation of "no lies" in a marriage, which, after extensive but unproductive counseling, would leave only complete honesty and no intimacy of any sort for the partner who craves it, or divorce, as alternatives. I have been advised to give up intimacy and to accept that a certain type of human contact is over for me forever. I have been advised to walk out. Just perhaps human (humane?) realities require a less-principled middle course on occasion. 

But on to the issue posed by Gloria. I have read and reread the threads and have a little trouble understanding why this is being discussed entirely as a domme/sub issue. Maybe this is your very point - that the question of fantasy and reality arises in every sex service encounter.The difficulty of keeping fantasy separate from reality is always there. If I want to think of myself as a dominant male and have my pro be subservient, then her professional task is to take my cues and meet my expectations. Or if I want to be a teacher and have her a student. Whatever. The customer always brings a set of expectations and the pro tries to fulfill them. And in every such case, there is the danger that she will meet them well and that the customer could then expect "amateur" encounters to be as focused on satisfying to his own self-centered desires. But every non-professional encounter involves two sets of expectations, not one, which the partners should be working to meet. If the customer cannot recognize that difference, I honestly think it is a character issue of the male's, not a problem caused by the pro, particularly when some of the very best go out of their way to remind their clients of this fantasy/reality distinction.

So you've caught me - supporting the sex worker again! Why are we arguing?

Booklover, you wrote:

Gracie - I was a bit put off, but that was yesterday. What upset me was your principled, but I think too easy, expectation of "no lies" in a marriage, which, after extensive but unproductive counseling, would leave only complete honesty and no intimacy of any sort for the partner who craves it, or divorce, as alternatives. I have been advised to give up intimacy and to accept that a certain type of human contact is over for me forever. I have been advised to walk out. Just perhaps human (humane?) realities require a less-principled middle course on occasion.

It may sound strange that I would have such a principaled but too easy expectation for honesty in marriage or other committed relationships, but I do.  I think that's what most people in those relationships expect.  However, because I do understand the difficulty in achiving such a 'no lies' policy, and my participation in the opposite (I certainly never outed a client & realized I was part of the duplicity in following protocols), I have thought much about it over the years.

I don't advise you to give up on intimacy, nor do I think you or another in a position with intimacy issues in their marriage is left with 2 polar choices: accept next to nothing 'forever' or get a divorce.  I completely understand the grey areas and the valid choices within.  But I must caution that others, i.e. 'your spouse', may view the visit to a pro as a betrayal because that's very likely.  If I sounded like I was on my moral high horse, I do apologize for not using my words better.  My real point is that if sex and sex workers were given the credit and value due, perhaps there would not be such a miserable lot of only those 2 choices.

If sexual intimacy and sexual acts were considered important and as vital as any other human need and bodily function, then sex workers and their services would also be valued.  Then the 'no lies' policy would be easy.  Let's say I have a need, be it for sexual intimacy or a particular act.  My partner isn't interested in doing it.  I can tell my partner honestly that I need this, that I'm going to a pro, and it can be viewed like any other appointment for a massage therapist, dentist etc.  I'm going to get something my partner can't/won't provide.  I'm getting it elsewhere in a manner that doesn't affect our love or relationship, but at the same time validates that my needs are important. 

If we lived in this world, 'no lies' would be easier.  But we don't.  So, yeah, unfortunately, lies exist.

And I do think these lies affect the fantasy v reality situation, but that's another topic really, and it involves those who step outside the relationship with non-pros which is a whole other issue.  So I'll table that for now

You also wrote:

Maybe this is your very point - that the question of fantasy and reality arises in every sex service encounter.

Yes!  (is the short answer)

The long answer (you didn't think I'd leave it there, did you? lol), is that this problem isn't specific to just bdsm, nor to even just sex workers ~ though perhaps more exaggerated in those areas.  Expectations, sexual and/or relationship wise, based on anything other than reality undermine real relationships and intractions.  From the simple:  Images in a lingerie catalog lead a man to expect all women to look like that, &/or a woman to believe she isn't going to satisfy anyone because she doesn't look that way.  To the more complicated:  The ads for pro femdommes creating expecations that all femdommes will not only provide the same expericence but will look that way too. 

Like you said:

But every non-professional encounter involves two sets of expectations, not one, which the partners should be working to meet. 

Or working to adjust those expectations ~ to expect & allow for reality. 

If the customer cannot recognize that difference, I honestly think it is a character issue of the male's, not a problem caused by the pro, particularly when some of the very best go out of their way to remind their clients of this fantasy/reality distinction.

Yes, yes, yes! I agree completely.  But like we've both been saying, there are many expectations.  I think Gloria's point was that not only the male subs were the ones with expectations based on fantasy, but it was affecting the femdommes too.  They were either feeling bad that they didn't live up to expectations (as stated by complaints by subs) &/or they were afraid to even try dominating because they wouldn't be able to 'do all that'.  My point was that it sounded as if Gloria was (perhaps) falling into her own expectations that subs were weak, addictive, and controling rather than submitting. 

So you've caught me - supporting the sex worker again! Why are we arguing? 

I didn't think we were arguing lol  This is what the boards are for.  To talk things out ~ even if it doesn't always seem to make sense or isn't going to 'work' for everyone.  At the end of the discussion, I don't have to convince you of anything or vice versa ~ but we both have learned something, I would imagine   Not to mention the others who read all this

And I don't consider this 'over' or anything.  I think the issue of expectations & sex workers is still ongoing.  (Not to mention we have what, like 5 other threads/topics to start based on this? lol)  For example, do most sex workers (pro femdomes and others) do a good enough job reminding their clients that the service is fantasy?  How far can they do that without ruining the fantasy, the service?  How much of the living in or expecting of fantasy is due to media images ~ and how much of this is a client being an unwise consumer?  As with the images of female form, what are we all buying that isn't healthy, wise or simply not being seen as fantasy?  Where do the expectations come from and what can be done to remind us all of the line between fantasy and reality so that folks are sane about it all?

Gracie - this time, a short response should not be taken amiss. I'm with you through all you have said, even to the point of, for honesty's sake (and with a professional counselor's help), being willing to explore the "hall pass" you once described as a reasonable response to meet two peoples' diverging needs. That should be a very interesting session!

But beyond my personal concerns, your broader sociological questions about roles, images, reality and false expectations are fascinating to me. My experience here is more limited that most - but I look forward to the conversation.

Gracie...

As you know, I'm juggling a lot right now and am desperate to get to this thread to hopefully say something worth two cents.  Until I can get back and devote my entire attention to what I believe is a very issue to contemplate, let me suggest we think about this:

Perhaps sex services are as good or as bad as the provider and/or providee?

~Angela

Yes, Angela, I know you are busy, dear.  But if I don't nag & mock you now and then, I don't feel truly alive

You wrote: Perhaps sex services are as good or as bad as the provider and/or providee? And generally speaking yes, of course.  But 'we' (service providers and clients) do not exist in a vacuum.  So while I know we help clients at least during our service time, but what of the larger picture?  Are we part of the problems with sexuality in general, or part of the solution? 

I believe we help more than we hinder, but perhaps I am blinded by my own choice to do the work and my personal beliefs.  So opening up the discussion is a chance to examine my own thoughts and hear from others who have valid opinions and experiences too.

And while I doubt anyone will convince me that sex work is 'bad', it doesn't mean that I shouldn't think more about the larger picture... Where do sex workers fit in?  If we are important, why aren't we valued more?  Why is it illegal in so many places, despite its popularity?  And where it is legal, it is still viewed as an 'exotic' entertainment, a morality lesson with participants (providers and clients) looked upon with pity, or just a joke?

There's a lot of talk about safety with sex work ~ and that too is needed.  But what about the safety and concern for those our actions touch?  If we are to be a valid part of society, we ought to think about those things too. 

I figured the best place to start was with a look at why folks think sex workers are 'bad'.  Plus  I figured this thread might get more eyeballs as opposed to a title reading "Gracie's Off On A Tangent (Or Seven) About Sex Work" lol)

So what's the difference between:

Mr. Horny Harry who, in the idiocy of being a male animal has become all fetished out on blondes with big tits (which he seeks out and finds all over the internet) and has to think of such in order to successfully bang one off with his wife once a week.

and

Mrs. Horny Harry who, complacently secure in her predictable marriage, avoids sex at all cost with Mr. Horny Harry, preferring, even devouring, her romance novels, soap operas and Encore-Love day in and day out? 

OK, the Mr & Mrs Horny questsions are not about sex workers but fantasies... In light of the earlier conversations, I'd say neither is good for their relationship as the fantasy life upsets/diminishes their relationship. They've gone too far. Their fantasies exclude their real world relationships.

If you put this in the light of Booklover's earlier questions about women lossing their drive so to speak, I'm working on a piece on that (incuding men), so I'm going to hold that off a bit, if you don't mind.

If you take either a step further, and have Mr or Mrs go to a sex worker to deliver the fantasy, then I'd say pending on the sex worker it could be helpful ~ or make things worse. If the sex worker doesn't work on clearing up the lines of fantasy v reality, then it will be worse. Of course, the client has a role in this too. And the spouse. Lying or not divulging to the spouse is problematic; not working on or accepting the situation as fantasy and trying to find a way to incorporate fantasy with the relationship; the spouse not being willing to try; &/or a combination thereof will make things worse for both Mr & Mrs Horny. At least in my opinion.

Which brings us to the role of a sex worker. How do we make it clear that this is a fantasy service without ruining the fantasy? How do we help clients to take the best of sessions and apply it to their lives in order to increase the happiness of their relationship? And even if the client tries, what if the spouse/partner rejects it?

So while I am aware that sex work is not done in a vacumm, I am also aware that it's not all in the control of the service provider.

But since sex workers are the villified ones, it seems the best place to start...

No...you are not getting what I am saying.  Referring back to Gloria Brame's origninal supposition (see link above), she made the point that (some) men expect fantasy (certain leathers, whips, toys, garter belts--whatever) domination from their real-life dommes.

My point being that...fantasy for both Mr. and Mrs. Horny is very much a part of their lives in an unhealthy way.

My second point being that --if fantasy dommes are bad news --well then, so are romantic-fantasy writers, soaps, etc.

My third being that --in light of my second point--  a person's inability to discern between fantasy and reality is really not my problem.  They have deeper problems and are, indeed, very sad people.  Again...this goes for both male and females.

My fourth being that  --despite the Mr. and Mrs. Hornies of the world-- fantasy is a valid and healthy outlet.  IF indulged as an occasional treat and not as a substitute for real life.

So there! 

Let's talk about the role or sex workers.  First, I come from having worked in Nevada for 21 years.  It is the only state in the union that has legalized prostitution.  There have been drives to close the brothels, but the residents of the state have voted down all measures to do so.  Most of the brothels are along highways 80 and 95, the major east/west and north/south highways in the state.  The only places that brothels cannot locate are in Reno, Carson City, Las Vegas, and Lake Tahoe; however, all those areas have brothels within an hour's drive.

First of all, sex workers in Nevada are "working girls."  This is a recognition on the part of Nevda residents that the sex workers are indeed workers as much as the casino workers or secretaries.  Even though they are restricted by many laws, the laws are designed to protect the customer and the girls themselves.  

Over the years I have had contact with several of the sex workers.  They are in a customer service business.  It is a business.  And the girls do have the option of refusing service to any customer.  The role of the sex worker is definitely different from the role of the significant other/spouse.  The sex worker cannot afford to become invested in the emotional component of the customer.  The job is to provide a fantasy to the customer.  As long as this fantasy does not become harmful to either involved, as long as both realize that the world of fantasy is being entered and will be left once the session is over, it has to be the customer who drives the event.

The relationship between significant others/spouses has to be different.  Even if there is a domme/sub relationship, the emotional component is present and this will definitely affect the sexual dynamic in a way that working with a pro cannot and should not.  In a non-pro setting, I can expect to receive satisfaction (sexual and emotional) that a pro cannot.  Yes, the sub in a pro situation does rule.  After all, s/he is the one paying for the service.  And in this situation there is a willing suspension of disbelief.  In a non-pro relationship, there has to be a give/take dynamic present.  

Yes, I agree with Gracie that using the services of a sex worker should be available to people whose partners are incapable of fulfilling them in a given area of sexuality.  There are some women who simply gross out at domming a partner.  There are some people who are simply incapable of giving any sexual gratification to a partner at all.  We should be able to separate our physical needs from the emotional.  However, it is often these same people who are incapable of providing the emotional support for a partner and the ones who will adamantly refuse to grant permission for that partner to seek it elsewhere while maintaining the emotional connection to a partner.  Human nature being what it is, unfortunately, what should be often is not.

There is a place for sex workers in this universe.  At least the citizens of Nevada have recognized that fact.  It's too bad the rest of the world has not reached that point.

May I try to summarize?

1. Fantasy can so condition one's mind that he/she loses all interest in real relationships. Bad.

2. Fantasy can so condition one's mind that he/she has unrealistic expectations in his/her real relationships. Also bad (Gloria's point about subs and dommes, expanded by Angela to include many forms of fantasy.)

3. Fantasy can be supplemental, helping one deal with and accept incomplete real relationships. I think good; Gracie isn't so sure.

4. Fantasy can be healthy and fun (Gracie, Angela and Jewell.) Very good!

5. Fantasy is the sex worker's product; how the client uses it is the client's responsibility (Jewell and Angela.)

6. Society doesn't give fantasy its due (Jewell and Gracie.) Bad. I think that is ultimately because the people who value it are the clients - and they are not effective spokespeople for a change in public attitude, because the public fears point 2 in particular.

Reply to Angela's post:

 May I try to summarize?

Sure

1. Fantasy can so condition one's mind that he/she loses all interest in real relationships. Bad.

Agreed. 

2. Fantasy can so condition one's mind that he/she has unrealistic expectations in his/her real relationships. Also bad (Gloria's point about subs and dommes, expanded by Angela to include many forms of fantasy.)

Agreed. 

3. Fantasy can be supplemental, helping one deal with and accept incomplete real relationships. I think good; Gracie isn't so sure.

No/untrue.  I am sure ~ sure that it can be helpful, but with cautions. We do not, not a one of us, exist in a vacuum.  So while it may help person A, person B may not only not be helped, but be hurt.   

4. Fantasy can be healthy and fun (Gracie, Angela and Jewell.) Very good!

True. 

5. Fantasy is the sex worker's product; how the client uses it is the client's responsibility (Jewell and Angela.)

I too agree, but do believe the worker has a responsibility in this too.  Unethical workers exist. 

6. Society doesn't give fantasy its due (Jewell and Gracie.) Bad.

Agreed. 

I think that is ultimately because the people who value it are the clients - and they are not effective spokespeople for a change in public attitude, because the public fears point 2 in particular.

Hmm, I agree, but have more to add (what a fucking surprise lol).  Clients often do not attempt to be spokespersons because of point 6 (part a).  If they cannot bear to share their needs or service use with a spouse, how can they attempt to advocate for sex workers/services?  Again, clients have legitimate reasons.  Like sex workers, they are invalidated just for participating, legal or not.  But if not 'us', then who as far as advocacy?  And to be viewed legit/valid, we need to take into account the concerns of others about sex services, yes?

A belated – and scattered response.

It is hard to see professional dominatrices causing much harm. Very few people can afford them.

If anything exerts a distorting influence in female dominant relationships it would be the “Mean Bitches” and Other World Kingdom femdom erotica websites. They are far more accessible. And many men with masochistic and submissive inclinations are so often hesitant and fearful of trying to realize that part of their sexuality that they probably spend years looking at all the tantalizingly extreme photographs before they take even a baby step in the direction of trying to actually experience BDSM.

Of course some men become fixated on Playboy playmates, probably to the degree that they don’t find ordinary women attractive. Or even movie stars, which would suggest Marilyn Monroe, Angelina Jolie and their sisters are forces for evil.

A fairly familiar argument sometimes offer by certain schools of feminism.

The key difference between men who dream about Mistress BeatTheHellOutOfYou and the guy who ogles pin-ups and starlets (there’s a forgotten word) is that the latter associates with normal women on a daily basis and doesn’t as often fall off into a deep pit of unreality.

Men who want to bottom in a BDSM experience aren’t likely to run across women openly interested in erotic sadism and dominance at work or the grocery store. Leaving them more likely to live forever in the damnation of the unrealistic.

I’ve taken that ride. But finding myself in a loving relationship with a sadist who enjoys seeing me on my knees I got off the Fantasy Ferris Wheel. Not that I didn’t need to steady myself so my head would stop spinning from all the outrageous ideas I’d saved up.  (Some of which I am lucky enough to get to live.)

Sex workers and erotic artists – or exploiters – are never the problem. It us up to those that have been part of their audience to adapt to reality.

Either you have the clarity and character to respond to a real person or you don’t.

My fourth being that  --despite the Mr. and Mrs. Hornies of the world-- fantasy is a valid and healthy outlet.  IF indulged as an occasional treat and not as a substitute for real life.

So there! 

Thanks Angela, you finaly hit the bottom line.(Pardon the pun) You summed it all up so well.

Why did it take all those words to see the fucking obvious. If fantasy in moderation is a bad thing then we sould all stop writing and reading erotica, stop going to the cinema, theatre, reading any fiction, and stop day dreaming about being tied up and fucked up the ass by some Shelia with a strawberry flavoured strap on. My scull cinema is my own and I can watch and write what I like but I still know who I love and what is my 24/7 life. But The one I love and I can play games once in a while to spice things up, it's the spice of life for fuck's sake! 

People that let their fantasies cloud their reality need professional help and therapy that a sex worker is neither qualified in and should not be expected to deal with.

Sex workers provide a quick fuck or a complete fantasy for their client dependening upon which strata of the profession they straddle, they get paid and that is where their job ends. Leave the trickcycling to those trained in that department and know how to ride that particular bike. But then we all already knew that way back didn't we?

Cheers Jewel we agree again, and  the state of Queensland agrees with Nevada too!

It's Only Words~ The Bee Gees

The anticipation waiting for the doorbell to ring was unbelievable, and when it did she was something else and so confident. We had a glass of wine and I paid her, it was a lot of money but she was a high class act. She asked, “If I had any special requests”, I had none. “You’re the expert, show me” so for the next 3 hrs she took me through the card. I hasten to add we did break and talk and drink more wine but we never kissed once. There were times it passed thru my mind that I wished this were Irene so that we could cuddle (Jake, The love sheriff, don’t say a word, yet!)  Among other things I knew she did better.

All the above and our improved sex life to this day was in no small way thanks to my meeting with this sex worker, she did her job well, got paid very well. The rest was up to me.

But then again I guess we all knew that way back. 

WARNING: Don't Try This at Home.

Tony: I don't doubt your account and I'm happy that all worked out well. But what made it work seems to be the fact that Irene is an exceptional woman who loves you deeply and is confident that you love her too. I'm not sure every confession would be received with the same compassion and sense of shared adventure.

Well 'booklover' we finaly meet.

I find your 'warning dont try this at home' fucking offensive and indicitive of most guys that want to cheat on women, that almost all marriages are built on lies.

Don't try this at Home keep on liying then,

Ours didn't just work out well, my wife and I worked at it well to make it work. Dont for one fucking moment think I was lucky.

(edited by Gracie)

Tony my friend & writing PURRtner,

I know I’m in no position to judge anybody. Your situation & mine are very different. I, too married my 1^st wife at 18. In retrospect in our case, we hadn’t been blessed with either the maturity or the patience that you & Irene had. Neither of us were able to handle things like responsibility & fidelity. Naturally, that marriage (mercifully for both of us) imploded prematurely.

In the interim before my 2^nd marriage, I foolishly lived that cliché life of sex, drugs & rock ‘n roll. I was a young guitar jockey in the best physical shape of my life & I could more women than I could have dreamed of & as you’ve read, all sorts of women actually wanted me. I was able to live every sexual fantasy most only dream about for free. As such, professional sex services would have been quite superfluous & completely out of the question for me then. Of course, my mind was completely fucked up in so many ways, but I couldn‘t care less at the time.

But that was then, this is now. - (I can‘t believe I‘m saying this) - The Monkees ***hangs head in embarrassment at that ***.

I can’t help but think that the advent of the wheelchair I’m now stuck in & the stroke I suffered were some sort of divine retribution for the life I’d been living, but I’ve realized since that it was actually a blessing in disguise instead. I had to take a hard look at my life and was ashamed & even embarrassed of some of the things I had done. I went through detox, sobered up, cleaned up & straightened out what was left of my life. That’s when I went back to school, graduated from college & became a writer. A frustrated one, but a writer nonetheless. As you know, I’ve been married twice (widowed once) since then, but because both women had pasts in which they had done all those things and had gotten all those cravings out of their system, those marriages have been mutually satisfying. There was never any need to live out any leftover fantasies or for professional sex workers to do it for us. That would have been redundant. We all had the scars to prove it.

That’s certainly NOT to suggest that it’s wrong for anybody else or even most people to do so! You’re right, it’s in fact healthy for many, even most people. I know you find it humorous that my life is such an “open book“, but it’s those memories & that new perspective that helped make me what I am today, a satisfied, content married man. (Remember, I’m now married to the erstwhile “Paprika”.) We’re able to share our memories of past exploits with no guilt, jealousy or regrets. We can even laugh at our bygone selves & experiences & often do. Mature in so many ways now, we both have no problem acknowledging our pasts, but we live in the present.

But like Booklover wisely put it, don’t try this at home! He is also right by noting that Irene is an exceptional woman. You are a very fortunate man. 

Hi Jake I suppose it was inevitable that you would turn up, Somebody mentioned marriage did they!

If anyone tries this at home or not is not my affair, but wise to live a lie?

Maybe, just maybe Irene is a fortunate woman, she has a man that never lies to her

 and  loves her very much. Your assumptions are only based on a small part of the whole story.

You make your own luck in this life my friend, by the choices you make as you go.

Just thought this needed livening up a bit, your all going round in circles.

Gracie saved my ass again (edited by Tony) luv you

Hi BL

There is no need to apologise, I overreacted, I was probably “Tired and Emotional” cough, cough okay pissed then!

Looks like I took your comments the wrong way.

There are 2 conditions for MM one is sober, sarcastic and hopefully funny the other is high on fine wine, There is a third when the 2 come together (nice trick if you can manage it) that fortunately don’t happen too often. But it can be quite explosive or maybe expletive and certainly melofuckingdramatic.

Sometimes I wake up in the morning and think you asshole Tony how could you say that and send it, Sometimes I wake up and think that’s really cool, I don’t remember writing that!

I think the character in PURR ‘Tone Redman’ is starting to affect my real self or is it the other way round. Ask dear Tess and Jake, especially Jake who has had to put up with me for the last 8/9 months. He’s my favourite target we can and do insult each other on a daily basis but mostly in fun, unlike when we first met. No one can take my punches and give em back like him. The result is our work together ‘PURR’ that was an amazing experience and a pleasure; he is quite a clever bag of tricks.

 2 nights ago coincidentally I wrote you into the Australian leg of the tour, I think it’s around Chapter 20.

I seem to make most of my friends here at S-K by sheer head on collision. I hope you and I can say the same thing. BL ‘here’s my hand and here’s my heart’

Kind Regards

Tony

Jake writes; "I can’t help but think that the advent of the wheelchair I’m now stuck in & the stroke I suffered were some sort of divine retribution for the life I’d been living, but I’ve realized since that it was actually a blessing in disguise instead."

Jake my dear, I can so totally relate to this. I too have had a "life changing" experience, which is over 2 years now, but still so fresh and vivid to me. It made me realize so many things......  I best not go on, as then the tears will come and this will turn into a novel instead of a post. 

Big hugs to you my friend. 

Kat, thank you for your kind words. I’m very sorry to learn of your health woes, whatever they may be. I’ve been in this damn chair for almost 17 years now myself, but I really didn‘t mean to take up so much space to write about my own biography on S-K.

I apologize to everybody for that. (OK, Tony?) All I was really trying to do was just explain my own reasoning for never having had any need to avail myself of the services of sex professionals. I never said anything to deride that occupation, nor did I intend to offend anyone. It’s a valid vocation.

You seem to be the same type of person as me. I too was determined never let anything kill my libido. Hell, as I wrote, I’ve been married twice since then. Things may be different now for both of us, but I’m still me & you’re still you! Now pick up your bass guitar & enjoy the show! PURR’s got to resume on S-K any day now & you play a part in it!  

 BL, your  welcome.

It is chapter 20 unfortunately, Jake and I started writing this 9 months ago when you weren't around much, if at all back then.

Jake you reckon we can fit him in the brass section? 'T-bone' also known as BL, no, Space otherwise known BL no, Amin somehow I really think not!

Jake! Blair other wise known as BL that could work a treat, whada ya say my erudite Co PURRpetrator? Blair would be good, then he would be around a fair bit as long as he can take the pressure. Is the real BL dominant enough, or submissive enough, to go the distance? maybe after chapter 3 he can let us know how he feels. But where is chapter 3 ?

Has Gracie played the 'keeping em all on the edge of thier seats card' I read somewhere on one of her posts recently that one thing she could never tolerate was lateness, tardiness, Jake jot that word down you may just be able to impress our editor with it somewhere down the track! TARDINESS OK!

So Passette you promised this week would be PURR3. So nothing so far eh! i know you are a busy girl but bend over NOW! and assume the position for making all these fine kittens wait for their PURRfix! Oh what an ass, do I smack it or kiss it? The answer is easy. Both

BL, Blair maybe it was 'Karma'

 Oi! 'JJ' do I have to do all the fucking work here, I suppose your in the parlour again lounging around with the Sheilas, sabotaging my articles and elucidating on your life story and sexual prowess.I reckon by now we should be known as 'Harley Davison and the Marlboro Man' I have the hat you have the wheels, not to mention the wives.

'Henry 111V' Horton, I reckon you are the reason 'betti mustang' is MIA along with the articles Gracie asked me to pass on to her with a view to being published at S-K. Your a dodgy fucker 'LADIES I WARN YOU' do not try this bloke at home, he has confused ideas of wisdom, but in fairness to him he's been mixing with the wrong people for the last 9 months

And I must assume he is not alone, sorry folks I was fine when I arrived here over a year ago. 

But back then I wasn't that familiar with Test Pilot she can take a writer to the edges of the atmosphric envelope  one minute and plummet him almost into the ground the next, Okay well maybe just this writer.

Tess, Oh! Tess how you toment me, my 'Copper head Rose' you know I am nervously crazy about you. Just ask Tone Redman he suffers much the same.Therapy is definately in order, you just make him 'See Red!'

A lot of assholes think there being ever so smart when they play the male lying bonding mugs game and they are only kidding each other it goes thus;

1."I have never paid for it"

2."would never think of paying for it", 

3."Why would you pay for it",

4."I can always get it"

So let's try the truth and not the male bonding lie shall we guys? It goes something like this

1. I've never had it" 

2. "never had enough money"

3."I rarely get any, and I'm too fucking tight ass to try a professional, and get what I really want so still aint had any" 

4."I'm to shy too go and approach a professional, and I am liying anyway $50 bucks for a fuck thats too much"

Marlboro Man answers

1. Poor cunt will never now what he's missing.

2. Only had a fumble and finger in the dark.

3. Will never know what he is missing

4.Is a complete asshole and has no idea of sex  a $500 is a far better deal!

But on the other hand try this guys and fuck up you own lives

1. Pull some tart tonight hope you can lie through my teeth to get a fuck lie to her I've done it before. 

2. Lie again to some chick that you love her to get a go at the real thing and fuck that up too and end up feeling a cunt yourself rather than a real one.

3. Try to seduce another guys wife, that will certainly save you money initionaly but fuck, god how risky is that (try that around me you could get dead) also for free sex you get to fuck up at least 4 lives lets not think of the kids involved Eh! Cheap sex?

4. Get some Lessons, best money you will ever spend if you use the knowledge wisely

get some class boys, and stop lying, cheap sex is a  fucking waste of time and costs lives and you have to lie all the fucking time and fuck up lives and inevitably  your own, so how cheap $50 $500 $5000 all depends on the size of your fantasy, There is no such thing as free sex just like lunch. But love well that's a whole nover ball game init

Jake wise to lie, Booklover erudite lying I think not, fucking expensive, life threating even.

WARNING DONT TRY THIS SHIT AT HOME! 

I don’t lie. At least not since my 1^st wife anyway. But then again, that’s the one that cleaned me out in my only divorce & those lies cost me big $$$$. Since then, I’ve learned it pays to always at least tell some version of the truth. Lies always come back to bite you on your ass. I learned that lesson the hard way. I did try it your way at home. If that works for you or anybody else, that’s your business, go for it but you don’t have to be so self-righteous about it.  Remember, my wife, the former  "Paprika" was once an expensive  pro in Philly, Atlantic City & Los Vegas as well as other places.   She was once in high demand for her services, so she knows what she's doing.      

As a wise man once wrote, never underestimate what you don’t understand.  

Self-righteouness vs pomposity that'll be you and me Jake, care to dance? I really must just put the cork back in the bottle.

Sorry Gracie they only let me out now at the weekends!